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@neauoire OK, time to think about the art exhibit/compo thing :)

@cancel yes, so is that the same thing as the april merveilles jam, @Merristasis was asking me last time. I would love it if was the same thing. I will probably use Hypercard either way, I'm starting to get the hang of it and I have setup a pretty good dev pipeline for it.

@neauoire @cancel @Merristasis i'm 100% not using hypercard, i already know what im going to do :3

@cblgh @cancel @Merristasis what are you going to do? Maybe that can set a kind of ballpark

@cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis I don't think online games are the sort of thing I was thinking of...

@cblgh @cancel @Merristasis so a game, well I was going to make a little game as well, but it could be anything really I think. It's just a little something we can all work at once and share it on here.

@neauoire @cblgh @Merristasis I was thinking we provide something like a Macintosh SE/30 image with 2mb of RAM and Hypercard installed, and each entry is an 800kb Macintosh-formatted floppy disk image.

@cancel @cblgh @Merristasis well if alex want to make a MUD, maybe you and I can make hypercard stuff.

@neauoire @cancel @Merristasis i'll join in on the hypercard stuff when i flip the proverbial mud table

@cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis Hypercard has a full scripting language in it. You can implement a text thing in it pretty easily.

@cancel @cblgh @Merristasis yeah that's what I'm using 👋 it's super neat, and somewhat well documented.

@neauoire @cblgh @cancel just to be sure, only Hypercard? I'm up for this tho, I just want to be sure about everything :)

@l3kn @Merristasis @neauoire @cblgh I just use a System 7.5 image in a VM. You can download one from archive.org

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@neauoire @cblgh @Merristasis I was hoping that the constraint would be Hypercard, since it makes it really easy to put up the gallery at the end of it in a way that people can easily look at and experience, and prevents people from going too hard on things like writing 68k assembly for action games.

@neauoire @cancel @Merristasis exactly what i thought too :)

i also liked the monochromatic constraint, and play sessions of 5 min

@cblgh i think it might be possible to write a mud for our system7.5 image using the retro68 toolchain (github.com/autc04/Retro68) and the basilisk ii emulator's ethernet driver (basilisk.cebix.net/TECH section 6.12).
i kinda feel like experimenting with this for a bit to see how much of a headache it would be
@neauoire @cancel @Merristasis

@eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis I don’t really know how to respond to this. I don’t think an internet-connected social game is in the spirit of this jam at all. And your entry will cease to work in the future at some point. Also it will fail to work for many people due to the extra complexity and setup requirements (local NAT?) I don’t think the web version of the emulator will work with it.

@cancel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis i'm aware of those limitations. no idea what you mean with the spirit of the jam. as i see it, we're developing stuff for a custom system7.5 image. i'm trying to assess how far that could be taken

@eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis The point of constraints in a jam or compo is to limit the scope of possible work and to encourage working with those constraints.

You are instead seeking ways to stretch or bypass the limitations, rather than work with them.

The browser emulator that archive.org uses does not support ethernet or AppleTalk (neither did hardly any of these Macs back in the day.)

@cancel @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis There has been no announcement of the jam or its hard rules

There is no universal "point" to the constraints in jams and limitations, that is just your subjective belief

If it can run in the emulator and the constraint is an emulator that totally counts

Let people do what they want, you are merely being discouraging in a way that is not attractive or inviting

@dualhammers @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis I'll be working on the announcement later.

Asking people to set up host-passthrough NAT and internet connectivity for Basilisk II to use your entry is not going to be part of the guide for viewing entries, and it won't be possible from the web gallery (which I'm pretty sure we'll make, I think) because it's an esoteric feature that isn't supported.

I'm setting expectations appropriately. Internet connectivity is not meant to be a part of this.

@dualhammers @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis

I agreed with neauoire that the entries are Hypercard, not an arbitrary executable. You can probably launch one or hook into it from Hypercard, but it's not really the theme of the jam.

I guess I technically won't stop you from submitting a telnet client for a MUD as an entry, but I doubt anyone would be able to experience it.

@cancel @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis That is a better response than "you are ignoring the spirit of this project"

An even better response might be letting eel try and perhaps you will be surprised by something you did not think was possible.

Anyway, I am done now.

@dualhammers @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis It's running in an emulator. There is no magical way to set up host-passthrough NAT for Basilisk II that doesn't involve the internet and a bunch of platform-specific failure-prone stuff, and it won't work in a web gallery viewer like archive.org's anyway (which is how I expect most people will view the entries.)

@dualhammers @eel @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis

And I stand by my assertion that it's not in the spirit of the jam.

@cancel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis it's what i enjoy doing when working within constraints. exploring the limits of what's possible.
ok but if the emulator we'll use doesn't support ethernet, that's a hard limitation.

@eel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis I expect most people will use Basilisk II locally while working on their entries, but I was planning on having a web gallery with virtual floppy disks similar to archive.org's.

Setting up networking in Basilisk II is not a click-and-run experience, and it's not something I'm willing to ask people to do. It would stop 99% of people from viewing the entries, because it's so much harder than just running the emulator.

@eel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis And like I said earlier, it removes the timeless component of your entry, because now it's tied to some service over the internet in order to function.

@cancel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis i really like the idea of a web gallery so i'll target that instead of basilisk.
thanks for your insight

@eel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis There's nothing stopping you from making a local-only text game! Internet is overrated, anyway :)

@eel @dualhammers @cblgh @neauoire @Merristasis If you really want to do it, you can submit it. I won't reject it or anything. I don't think neauoire would either. But you'll have to be the one to convince users to set up the emulator correctly for your entry :)

@eel @neauoire @cancel @Merristasis cool thanks eel :) but yeah if i personally go down the mud route for this jam i'm not doing it in hypercard ^^

@cblgh @eel @neauoire @Merristasis I will ask neauoire again just to make sure, but I'm pretty sure we've agreed that the entries have to be Hypercard. I think you should be able to launch into another program from within Hypercard, but again, you will have to consider carefully the theme of the jam and what your real goal is. Remember that it's a weekend jam and you don't have much time -- Hypercard lets you work quickly. Writing an entire text game engine plus the content in 2.5 days...

@cancel @eel @neauoire @Merristasis nope, that's your hard constraint, i think you missed the announcement maru made: merveilles.town/@maru/10387769

i think a lot of people will experiment with hypercard though :)

@cancel @eel @neauoire @Merristasis anyway i think gatekeeping a jam is against the spirit of any jam, just let people make what they want.

i am looking forward to learning more about hypercard :~ but the excitement was definitely impacted by this thread

@cblgh @eel @neauoire @Merristasis I think making "gatekeeping" accusations isn't appropriate in a normal conversation.

I think it would have been more rude of me to ignore it and let it turn into a problem of last-minute misunderstanding at the time of submission. I don't want to waste people's time or mislead them.

@cancel @cblgh @eel @neauoire @Merristasis Two people have already felt you made a comment about the "spirit of the jam" that came across as gatekeeping. Why is it inappropriate for us to point out how your comments made us feel?

@dualhammers @cancel @eel @neauoire @Merristasis
i apologize for my comment, but this was a hell of a conversation to open up mastodon to. i imagine devine will be similarly surprised lol.

anyway i still think you are in the wrong, doesn't mean i'm not going to play around with hypercard though :)

@cblgh @dualhammers @cancel @eel @Merristasis @flame People should be able to use whatever they want, we can suggest to use Hypercard(that's what you and I will be using), but that's not a hard limitation.

The point is to all work on cool things around the same time, help each other, and do something that is using no colors.

@neauoire @dualhammers @eel @Merristasis @flame OK, that's not what I thought was happening at all. I thought the reason I was setting this guide up and the limitations and VM image were to have technical framing for this. When did you decide it wouldn't be that way? This is the first I've heard.

@cancel @dualhammers @eel @Merristasis @flame Ah, so this is just a big misunderstanding, you happen to suggest an art compo, at the same time as the game jam was starting to talked about. When you mentioned the art compo, I thought you were already aware of the game jam ideas floating around. :)

Then yeah, it's fine. We can do both at once.

@cancel @dualhammers @eel @Merristasis @flame @cblgh 🤦‍♀️ I'm sorry, I feel like I was totally oblivious now that I'm re-reading the threads.

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