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Ripcord is being passed around social circles for young children today, because I'm being harassed multiple times per hour on the internet by 10-14 year old American children, with all of the things you would expect that entails.

@cancel oh no

have the gamers discovered suckless software

where do we hide

@syntacticsugarglider I'd rather be harassed by 10-14 year old American kids than cat-v people

@cancel oh

i use suckless more generally

i'm not suggesting that your work is considered harmful .-.

@syntacticsugarglider

I think the reason it's being passed around is it lets them send slightly louder audio than the regular Discord client, because it doesn't do any filtering, so they can win in voice chat loudness matches. Which is kind of hilarious.

@cancel are you serious?

for a moment there you had given me hope in humanity

the idea that young americans were rebelling against the Electron order of things and using native tools was exciting to me

but i'm too optimistic I guess

@syntacticsugarglider Ripcord isn't really native except maybe on like LXQt

@cancel all i mean by native is that it doesn't require a browser engine to run

@syntacticsugarglider Ah. The bar for native has been lowered significantly over time, I guess :)

@cancel i might be misusing the term but I see it applied in that way pretty frequently

example: the late chrome native client API

@syntacticsugarglider It used to mean "uses the toolkit of the platform". So on Macintosh it would use Toolbox, Carbon, or Cocoa. On Windows it would use Win32. UNIX systems had various things like Motif and CDE as standards, then later on with Linux there was GTK for Gnome. And then Qt was used for KDE, and then GTK and Qt were used for other things as well...

@syntacticsugarglider Specifically a C++ program that used Qt on Mac or Windows was NOT native. That was exactly what the term was invented to describe -- using some wrapper or some foreign toolkit to draw widget controls, handle text input, etc.

@syntacticsugarglider Over time I guess it got abused into meaning something totally different... oh well

@cancel yep, I'm aware

but at this point I see the term used to refer to anything compiled to "native code", that being the actual hardware ISA of a system as opposed to an IR, virtualized bytecode, or something interpreted

@syntacticsugarglider that seems like the least important thing to care about

@syntacticsugarglider well, I guess it's better than caring about nothing :P but if it's written in like, befunge or whatever and still runs good, I don't really care.

@syntacticsugarglider Like I'd rather use a program that had a regular-ass UI but was written in Python than use a C++ program which manipulated an embedded web browser to display and handle input, probably.

@cancel oh yeah that's actually a good point

spotify's desktop app for example uses CEF to draw the UI

(which is embedded chrome)

and it's godawful

it's still a native binary

so I think the distinction is pretty much completely divorced from any reasonable meaning of the term "native"

@cancel yeah, it's not especially relevant in and of itself

but in most cases things that aren't "native" in that way are either running in a browser or on the JVM

and people have a laundry list of issues with either one of those things

due to the like sheer weight of the runtime required to execute anything that depends on such an environment

@syntacticsugarglider Shipping a standalone GTK app for Windows, written in C, means including 40+ .dll files weighing in at over 35mb. Before you even count the actual program.

@syntacticsugarglider And GTK is super slow and takes forever to start... has laggy input due to many layers of indirections and plugin systems and whatever... but it's written in C! :P

@cancel I guess I should hate GTK more lol

but i've never had a GTK program feel unresponsive

I think what you're calling "many layers of indirections" is probably still far less overhead than something like CEF

@syntacticsugarglider "ah, nice, a Macintosh emulator, and it uses GTK! can't wait to try it out"

@cancel aaaaa

this reminds me of my experience trying to ship something that linked against gstreamer

i needed like two plugins for webrtc support bc its somehow the least awful webrtc stack to link against

but some weird GPL clause forces you to ship a bunch of unused code

not really sure why but i was just profoundly infuriated by that experience

felt very contrary to what I consider the ethos of OSS

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Merveilles

Merveilles is a community project aimed at the establishment of new ways of speaking, seeing and organizing information — A culture that seeks augmentation through the arts of engineering and design. A warm welcome to any like-minded people who feel these ideals resonate with them.