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"The moments of true freedom come when you stop giving one single fuck about what other people think or do."

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the more I think about that quote (from @freedcreative ) the more I wonder if there is an important distinction between not giving a fuck and completely accepting.

Not giving a fuck I think can have the taste of madness to it - a total disassociation from your own interconnection to the rest of the universe. I don't give fuck because nothing is real but me

As opposed to complete acceptance of what others do/think where you acknowledge those ripples as just as real as your own

@dualhammers @freedcreative I think the phrase "not giving a fuck" has an aggressive/angry connotation to me, so it makes sense that it infers some amount of pushing away instead of accepting in

@milofultz @freedcreative I think that's intentional - a reaction to many experiences of caring too much and being hurt by it

@dualhammers @milofultz You’re both right about what I meant by that.

I definitely mean pushing back, hard. But I don’t mean becoming a selfish asshole.

I mean coming to wholly reject the idea that your personal worth can be determined by others.

Ironically, resolving to determine self worth autonomously almost certainly increases caring and selflessness.

That’s because the source of caring then comes 100% from personally valuing these actions, not from a sense that others value them.

@freedcreative @milofultz That's interesting.

I don't automatically assume not caring with others think with having a strong positive value of myself

@dualhammers @milofultz I never forgot hearing Krishnamurti say “You have to be a light unto yourself! In a world that is utterly becoming dark.” Best advice.

If something about you doesn’t exist unless other people value it, it’s not really you.

Conversely, if something within you is entirely independent and self sustained, then it’s really you.

Caring what others think and feel should exist as part of empathy and kindness, but never depended on as an external source of worth.

@freedcreative @milofultz I am not sure I believe that anything in the human is entire independent and self-sustained

@dualhammers @milofultz Perhaps it’s not possible to be absolute. But it’s also sort of abstracting away from the real point.

What matters is developing as many aspects of yourself as you can into things that will endure even if absolutely nobody gives you any support or praise for them.

Making decisions about yourself, by yourself. Self determination.

@freedcreative @milofultz I think that can be difficult if your sensations about yourself are not well-calibrated

@freedcreative @milofultz And I feel like I need to read more about human psychological development to know how I feel on this.

If one was raised by wolves, as it were, would they even have a concept of the self? Would think think about what is really them?

@dualhammers @milofultz Absolutely, it’s a never ending life long process of reflection and continual change. It would be a rare person who could flip a switch and become entirely self determined.

When I use phrases like “really you”, I’m not really trying to focus on a definition of self or consciousness.

What I’m trying to focus on is locus of control. If your worth depends on others, they control you. If it comes from yourself, you control you.

@freedcreative @milofultz The thought that comes to mind is people's sense of self-worth originates when they have needs they cannot fufill on their own. When you become aware your needs rely on others you begin to care about what others think of you.

Not caring is the best answer but it requires also being able to forgo all desires you cannot satisfy without someone's opinion of you factoring into the process

@dualhammers @milofultz That’s true, that’s exactly what it requires. You basically just defined the core philosophy of Buddhism, that clinging is the root of all suffering.

Does that mean you should reject love, cooperation, kindness, or on a more physical level, food, shelter, good health?

No.

But it means you should accept the reality all these things come and go, outside our control. And when you keep reminding of that reality you are more likely to focus on what actually you can control.

@dualhammers @milofultz And I understand we do these things imperfectly. Who hasn’t compromised in order to secure survival dependent monetary income, for example.

But the fear of not gaining, or losing, things that will always inevitably be lost should have its capacity to compromise our locus of control minimized at every possible turn.

@freedcreative @milofultz perhaps desiring control even within ourselves is also a thing that causes suffering

@dualhammers @freedcreative I think you may be saying slightly different things. Seems like @freedcreative is saying control over action, and I think @dualhammers is saying control over emotions?

@dualhammers @milofultz I think it’s mostly misunderstandings and illusions about what can and can’t be controlled, leading to energy being misdirected towards fruitless endeavors.

@freedcreative @milofultz Should one control one's body if one's body does not want to do the thing that one has been taught will make them feel better?

@dualhammers @freedcreative Is this a question of whether there is trust between your motivations and your actions? Reminds me a little bit of ADD, where there is a disconnect between desire and motivation, particularly with long term benefit in mind, but obvs not the same

@milofultz @freedcreative In the Buddhist conception of reality desire is an illusion which leads to suffering

In the taoist conception of reality action (and desire in a sense) are part of one's nature and should be accepted.

Kezz seems to be suggesting a focus on what the self wants. Do things in your control for your own satisfaction.

But there can be, as you said, a mismatch between what one wants and what one does

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@dualhammers @milofultz I think there’s a bit of both here.

On the one hand, eventually your body will break down and die, this is inevitable. There will also be sickness and injury. These realities have to be accepted.

But on the other hand, decisions we make and things we do control have a flow on effect that indirectly but rapidly influence the body.

My take is that the focus should be on developing the internal, with the knowledge the body will naturally be influenced by internal changes.

@dualhammers @milofultz I mean “internal” in the stoic sense.

“There are things which are within our power, and there are things which are beyond our power. Within our power are opinion, aim, desire, aversion, and, in one word, whatever affairs are our own. Beyond our power are body, property, reputation, office, and, in one word, whatever are not properly our own affairs.” — Epictetus

IMO even physical exercise has the primary benefit of strengthening the internal, more than the body itself.

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