@eel I haven't used 9front much myself yet, but the community does scare me a bit too. Although, the little interactions I had with Sigrid and Aiju gives me hope, they're just amazing.
The plan9 subreddit might be just full of reddit assholes, I don't think it's necessarily answers from 9front people.
The subreddit is pretty bad and probably not cat-v 9front people, but it's kind of indicative of how cat-v interacts with new members in general and the attitude/culture
I think @eel is reasonably concerned if you take cat-v as the main gateway, but this isn't as necessary anymore
They have a habit of not being flexible on this, I firmly dislike this position
Not that all the cat-v are mean or bad! Not at all! I think most of them have good intentions and are generally good people
But the culture that's developed around it is not one I'm interested in forwarding or condoning
I think the results speak for themselves and the community is, in general, very wholesome in helpful, if not a bit uneducated on average in terms of how 9 works under the hood
I don't think this is a problem, I think most of the people hanging around there are very kind and patient and want to be helpful
Some kind of 'thick skin' expected or something, who knows
The reality is that I found a very non-zero number of people who were willing to step into a different and more welcoming space who would never voice their thoughts or want to send anything to cat-v due to the abrasiveness, etc.
@neauoire @eel 9front is by far the most pleasant way to experience plan9, too. I think that objectively speaking it's far better maintained and refined than 9legacy - and 9atom has been dead for years
But cat-v is shaped by a few and has a long lasting influence from people
Anyone can take the code and run away with it - as evidenced by the ANTS project mycroftiv made - with the public grid project that followed http://9gridchan.org/
@henesy @eel That's great, I hope others stumble on the discord before thinking looking to reddit for answers. There seems to be a near critical mass of folks doing good and accessible work on plan9 these days, it's what got me into it, and I'm sure others have felt it too.
Nearly everyone I spoke to asking for help has been amazing, my reaction to the reddit threads is really in constrast with my own experience. I don't like seeing newbies getting shots down or refused help.
I was able to breach into plan9 and get into it because a handful of very kind and patient people took time for me on and off cat-v and helped me get started on the pi, well before 9front was supposed to run on it and miller was at his first version :)
@neauoire @eel It's all kind of complicated, too since 9front fundamentally diverges from 9legacy in some ways where deep/systemic changes have been made - such as with authentication - which are maybe backwards compatible, but don't worry about being so - which is fine
I almost exclusively use 9front and do a lot of my hobby development on it, but I have barely interacted with anyone outside of the discord or public grid chat
There are very good people in the community and while the deepest knowledge is definitely centered in cat-v, you can get most of the info/help you want/need from other platforms
it's a systemic failure to provide and environment where people are free and encouraged to explore and learn at whimsy
plan9port is a very shallow imitation on top of unix of a plan9 environment, really just a set of aesthetics on top of a monolith - which is fine, I use it :)
the real compositional fun/beauty in plan9 can really only be appreciated through immersion, but the barrier to entry is unfortunate
that said, I do think many of the aesthetics adopted are unhelpful and haven't aged well, a 9front project without much of the 1940's/1980's-esque aesthetic imagery, etc. while part of what it is, isn't really helping anything
@neauoire @eel You'll have a decent time with Plan 9 communities provided that you allow yourself and others the opportunity to experience them on your own. You may find free-thinking people on the sticky side of labels such as 'cat-v'', 'grid', '9fans', and so on.
Expect disagreement. Demand learning. You'll be fine.
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