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youtube.com/watch?v=1OO5YpCevf

Wow okay apparently more than one cellular agriculture company has launched or is ready to launch once the regulations clear.

This is actually really moving to me.. This will make such a huge impact.

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@faun I find this whole exercise kind of strange since meat is generally not good for our health beyond the b12 requirement

@dualhammers I think it's important to focus on approaches that may work in light of the seemingly insoluble depravity of humanity.

@faun @dualhammers unfortunately the way people talk about meat it seems the depravity is the point

it seems like lab grown meat has been imminent all my life but it's never made it to mainstream markets

@carcinopithecus Why did it seem like it was imminent all your life. I'm pretty sure I only started hearing about it like 5 years ago.

We used to talk about the concept of meat that grows without a brain when we were kids, but it didn't feel imminent then.

@faun maybe reading too much clickbait online and old futurism books as a kid

@dualhammers @faun People refused to alter their behavior for the good of themselves and others during the pandemic, even when the ask was just "stay home for a few weeks." Enough people are not going to give up animal products because it's the ethical thing to do. If the mountain won't come to Muhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain.

@bee @faun My immediate thought is how the US dietary guidelines are a compromise between the science on what is actually healthy for us and what people think is "possible" to convince people to do. The unintended side-effect is plenty of people think following the guidelines is "good enough" because an expert told them to do it, and then are surprised when they get sicker.

My concern here is similar

@bee @faun If people are sold the idea that (and they will be since it is a profit-making endeavor) that cultured meat is better for the world (and maybe even better for them)? It may lead to MORE consumption not less. I assume cultured meat creates (or will create) less co2 per gram of meat, but then I have more questions.

Is that now? Or is it "hopefully in the future?" like crypto

Will it lead to a net gain in co2 if consumption goes up?

Will people be misled into thinking it is healthier?

@bee @faun Point being I am not totally opposed to the idea, but I do find it strange how much brain power and effort is put into complicated solutions rather than direct ones.

Your argument about the pandemic is not unfounded, but I think there is complexity there as well, and it isn't as simple as "humans are depraved." That's very Hume inspired thinking, which is definitely at the bedrock of Capitalism so it's unsurprising.

@bee @faun But I wonder what the behavior of US Citizens would have been if they, on the whole, believed their government would take care of them and trusted the healthcare system? What if those in power hadn't spent the last 60+ years destroying people's faith in the government and bankrupting them via for-profit healthcare?

I have an hunch people would have had more faith in authority figures who represent those systems

@bee @faun I think cultured meat is inevitable, just as I think more means-tested policies that don't actually solve social problems all that well are inevitable. I just find it strange, is all. I think we over-complicate things with the stories we tell ourselves.

@dualhammers @bee I wish I knew anything about the process's inputs, how the nutrient solutions are made, what they are made of, but this is probably proprietary (which lends support to the position Ezra Klein promoted on a recent 80K podcast (80000hours.org/podcast/episode); more of this stuff needs to be open sourced. Maybe EA should be donating to DIY open source cell ag. Maybe my chapter should do a session on this.)

@faun @bee I'm all for open sourcing this stuff, but I do wonder how people will try and keep it profitable. At the end of the day we don't live in societies that allow people to, mostly spend their lives doing costly (in terms of time or resources) things for free. We really should, but we don't.

@faun @bee
So if you open source cell ag, unless I can grow meat in my fridge it probably will still only be useful to companies who can afford the equipment and energy resources, and they have every incentive to make scare/proprietary some part of that process.

@dualhammers @bee If you open source enough of the processes, that wont be a very exclusive group. Hm I get the impression that farmers find it quite easy to get loans, is that true, and would that apply to cell ag too.

@faun @bee Depends on the farmer. There's a lot of farm-based subsidies in the US, my guess is there are similar programs in place to incentivize banks to give loans to farmers.

Problem is that a lot of ag in the US is directly subsidized to keep the floor from falling out. We already produce so much food a bunch of it doesn't actually make sense to produce economically.

@dualhammers @faun The cost of solar panels has dropped 65% since 2010. Air travel was once reserved for the elite. Vat meat will be cheaper than factory farmed meat, if we survive the next 15 years.

Like the CEO of Just said in the video, they're working on driving down the cost of the nutrient substrate now. Once those supply lines are forged and matured, I could totally see this being scaled down for consumers. If that happens, it's only a matter of time until it's open source, right?

@bee @dualhammers Ezra's hope was mainly that open sourcing would speed things up now.

I don't think affordability is going to be an issue, most of these companies are highly mission-driven rather than profit-driven (probably the reason none of them are publicly traded)

@faun @bee I have zero faith that any mission will win against the profit motive when push come to shove, assuming the person is not inclined to sacrifice their own power or survival.

Annie's is owned by General Mills. Ben and Jerry's is Unilever. Dr Bronner's will, I assume, be bought up at some point.

But I'm the anti-capitalist in this conversation, so I'll keep my opinions to myself on that one.

@dualhammers @faun Imagine, instead of freezing veggie scraps or keeping a compost bin, chucking it all into your solar-powered, pi-regulated culturebox. Sign me up, Scotty.

@bee @faun That would be very cool, assuming that the output is actually good for our bodies.

The research on meat protein consumption still highly indicates that it's not great for us in large doses.

@dualhammers @faun Health isn't relevant to mainstreaming this lol, or else McDonald's wouldn't be considered "normal food" today. It needs to be yummy, cheap, and it can't kill you within 20 years.

Once we've broken our addiction to industrialized animal ag, then we can start fine tuning the nutrition. We have other options available now for ideal nourishment. This is about aggressive resource management, disaster aversion, and ending atrocities against living things.

@bee @faun I think it's relevant, just perhaps not as important in the short term.

My guess is in 40 years we will be talking about talking about breaking our addiction to industrialized cultured ag, and whether we're doing that in bunkers or in archeologists or fema camps will probably indicate how quick we were with this and other compromise solutions.

@bee @faun I meant to write "arcologies" but my auto-correct dictionary didn't know that word.

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Merveilles is a community project aimed at the establishment of new ways of speaking, seeing and organizing information — A culture that seeks augmentation through the arts of engineering and design. A warm welcome to any like-minded people who feel these ideals resonate with them.