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As of today the choices for JS focused web dev are to go through Microsoft (npm) or Facebook (yarn), and it makes me want to do neither.

I think it's time for me to learn about Elm, wasm, and whatever other non-big-tech methods seem intriguing.

@freedcreative As I see it, a small and light-footprint future doesn't come with JS anyway... or say, not more than a couple loc per site.

@alcinnz It seems so cool I kind of want to learn it and then just *make* a use for it in some way.

@freedcreative @alcinnz huh, does elm avoid the use of npm? I always just assumed it was still dependent on that ecosystem.

@technomancy @freedcreative Elm tends to be quite cut off from normal JavaScript, and using it's own libraries instead.

And I think I heard mention of an Elm package manager...

@alcinnz @freedcreative cool; sounds like they're one step ahead. definitely cements it in place as the thing I'd turn to first if for some reason I had to write code that ran in a browser.

@freedcreative Deno looks like a good competitor to those package managers for JavaScript/Typescript, I hope more people play with it because it looks promising
github.com/denoland/deno

@freedcreative Officially feel like a genius for having not yet learned JS :P

@dualhammers @freedcreative There is no pride in not having learnt anything. Javascript is tremendously useful to know, you don't need to use package managers when using javascript either. It's mostly something that exists to serve the nodeJS ecosystem.

@neauoire @dualhammers @freedcreative neither Facebook or Microsoft own or control Javascript, as far as I am aware

@flame @neauoire @dualhammers I really like JS in and of itself. It's become a do-everything language but for me it's really about the browser, and what you can do with it there is amazing. Game dev, media playback, visual effects for sites, it's actually quite incredible. It's just a shame it seems to be a target point for exploitation.

@freedcreative I feel like this is a bit misleading

- Yarn _was_ Facebook, but isn't anymore
- Microsoft is supposedly still letting GitHub be GitHub (that's what they say at least)
- Deno is a great option for writing JavaScript without a package manager
- Pika is beta testing their package registry and I have high hopes for it

@flip Oh Yarn isn't FB now? Last I read everything ran through their servers. Who has the servers now?

RE. MS and GitHub, time will tell. But I don't think there should even be a question of a private org letting or not letting FOSS devs self-determine. It shouldn't even be a scenario to speculate about in the first place. Shared community resources should be controlled by shared community foundations.

I only heard about Deno recently and will definitely check it out. Thanks.

@freedcreative

> Shared community resources should be controlled by shared community foundations.

I think the problem here, in this case, lies in package managers in general. They're a convenience, but I don't think they're necessary in most cases and in the case of npm/yarn... they just mask the inconvenience with another form of inconvenience

@flip That's a good point. Anyone whose gone to move a directory with an npm project in it and realised it's absolutely enormous knows that there's definitely a downside.

For me what's most useful is just being able to have a list of repos needed for a project so they can be reliably pulled in.

They're all always on GitHub anyway, and you need git as a prerequisite for node & npm, so it would be awesome if what everyone commonly used was just a utility to git pull a collection of repos.

@freedcreative GitHub Packages is a thing also... haven't tried it, don't know if it's easily workable as an alternative

For Deno, my dependency file for a project looks like this screenshot. It's exactly what I want

@flip That does look neat. So you use it just like a regular module import but whack in the URL?

@freedcreative Precisely, Deno downloads whatever new url it's importing from the first time the code is run

@flip Oh I like that a lot.

Think I'll try see if I can use it for my personal site.

@freedcreative re: yarn, I don't know who has control over the registry, and that's important. But the package manager isn't Facebook controlled these days

@freedcreative my team evaluated pnpm at one point, wasn't excited about it, that's all I know

@nonlinear @freedcreative rust I think has a federated package management solution by default (but I may be wrong)

@zee @nonlinear I was just looking at Rust, thinking I might pick it up. Gets glowing praise, can be used with wasm, seems like a good option.

@freedcreative @nonlinear I'm simultaneously jealous of all the folks who are making the leap into languages like rust, and glad that I've finally began to accept that so little of my "work" is code anymore that I will likely never truly learn the new ecosystems.

@freedcreative yarn uses the npm repo, it's just a different frontend to it

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