Paul Frazee (of DAT/Hypercore/Beaker Browser/SSB fame) just started a new #p2p social networking project called #CTZN

github.com/pfrazee/ctzn

“A distributed social network mad science experiment. Twitter-style feed and posts. Users follow each other, post to their own p2p databases, and servers aggregate their community's data to provide large-scale indexes in their own p2p databases.”

@neauoire have you seen this yet? #Rotonde was such an inspiration to so many and it’s exciting to see people trying again.

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@liaizon I did see it, but it's like everything else in that sphere now, it's so utterly complex I hastily loose interest. It's another protocol, another javascript webapp, it's another bunch of tech thrown at a problem that could be just as easily solved by a twtxt feed.

I have no more bandwidth for that "way" of doing decentralization.

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@neauoire I don’t disagree with that assessment but also fear no one is making tools to make things like twtxt accessible to non tech people. The reason I am still in camp fediverse is that I can get someone off corporate media today and onto a space that me and my tech friends can do the work of managing instead of a corporation. But also the fediverse is overly complicated too. There isn’t one protocol or anything to follow to join the network as a new piece of software.

@liaizon My "hot take" about decentralization is that it is incompatible with people who don't have an interest learning how it works. Decentralized networks are as fragile as their least educated members.

HAM radio licenses requires the applicants to understand how the radio works, and how to repair it would it fail. I can't picture what a truly decentralized and accessible network might look like, it seems like freedom and convenience are at odds with each other.

@liaizon I'm aware that this is a super crappy take, it's just where I am at now with all that stuff. It's definitely not the true state of things, it's just the limits of my imagination.

I'm super happy that others are trying to solve that problem, I'm excited for them, it's not something I want to put my hands into at this time tho.

@neauoire @liaizon it's not a crappy take !
It remembers me hot discussions on free software mailing lists. The tension between "ease of use" and "modularity/ repairability/appropriability" is a strong (and creative) one.

@neauoire @liaizon I think this is a fair assessment! It upsets me that while lots of great effort is invested in new peer-to-peer technologies, there has not been much time at all spent on improving p2p user experiences, which is what's needed most

@jakeisnt @neauoire @liaizon You highlight one of the main problems of P2P protocols: In order to work, as many clients as possible have to talk the same protocol. And yes, actually the same, not a derivation. Means a minor change of the protocol, basically results in a new protocol, making rapid, distributed development almost impossible.

In comparison, when someone implements their own types in ActivityPub, since clients don't rely on direct exchange, this can simply be by anyone and work.

@neauoire Did you see Dmitry Kleiner's at this point rather old social network Thimbl entirely driven by the venerable fingerd?

telekommunisten.net/thimbl/

It shows its age by referring to identi.ca, so it's even pre-fediverse proper.
@liaizon

@pettter yes I have read about it but never got to play with it directly. Have talked to Dmitry a few times in Berlin about other stuff tho and always forgot to ask them about it directly

@neauoire @liaizon Kind of got that feeling too. Now that we have AP, I just want everything else to exist in terms of that. I don't see any reason AP couldn't exist on top of IPFS or whatever.

@neauoire @liaizon Wow, I’ve never heard of twtxt! That is awesome, going to try that out on my server. I do wonder to what degree (answer: large) we are overthinking all this, and as you suggest, low-tech is the 80% solution. HTTPS and basic auth gets another 5%?

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