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You don't own the content of your digital garden if you need Chrome to access it, simple as that.

@paul yeah, I was just looking at someone's wiki who didn't display at all in netsurf because it's all javascript and css3 shit. I thought, well, unless you can compile your modern web browser yourself, it doesn't matter if the browser is open source if the source is so big that you can't build it, and if that's the only window into your notes - then these notes, you don't own them.

@neauoire @paul apparently my digital garden doesn’t work in netsurf. it appears i don’t own my notes. (but at least it works in firefox for now?)

@gavcloud @neauoire @paul at least tiddlywiki is just one big file though you can just download it and open it in a text editor. not as simple if you use an external db. I think ownership is always a more complicated matter though. do we own anything on our computers if the means to make silicon processors are only in the hands of multinational corporations?

@neauoire @gavcloud @paul my shitpost: all blogs and wikis should have a printed yearly paper zine version that is mailed to each continent and stored in a communal library...

@liaizon @gavcloud @paul it's interesting tho, more and more people adopt markdown source format for their wiki, it's probably(?) the best way right now to quickly get a paper copy of your knowledge base - with all the tools that can take that format and typeset it.

@neauoire
@liaizon @gavcloud @paul Just wanted to mention that I love Markdown, I use it for my blogs, to write assignments (that I convert to .odt if that's what the teacher wants, and to .epub too if they want to read it in the tramway), to take lecture notes converted to XeLaTeX without worrying about writing "\subsubsection" correctly, etc.

@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul solution - your wiki should just be a single html page with links to .txt and .md files

@dualhammers @liaizon @gavcloud @paul No, not leveraging the power of links totally defies the point of a wiki.

@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul @kevin I am honestly surprised they don't yet. Add-ons for Firefox and chrome that render markdown are like 500kb.

@dualhammers
@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @kevin just write stuff as if it will happen like that. When modern browsers collapse under the weight of their complexity, it'll be trivial to write small hypertext renderers with markdown as input to display the content again.

(inb4 gemini, lagrange, etc).

@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul I really hope browsers just let you view markdown directly like as if it was an HTML page soon. That will make it so much easier to maintain simple websites and not worry about build systems and stuff.

@kevin @neauoire

I was really surprised and amazed when I tried the experimental p2p browser Beaker. You can use it to view *and create* websites! And it natively supports markdown!

In this case, it fit their vision for the browser. But it's true that all browser should support it natively!

@liaizon @gavcloud @paul

@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul You know what would be cool is a “reader mode” button. Similar to how dark/light mode toggles are becoming common.

Go as fancy as you like in the bells and whistles version, and with one click apply a super light, can’t-fail, ultra minimal layout instead. Something for everyone.

@freedcreative @liaizon @gavcloud @paul Browsers already have that now tho? I use it all the time, or do you mean specifically for markdown? Then we basically just describe Gemini ^^

@neauoire @freedcreative @liaizon @gavcloud @paul

Firefox has a good reader mode that you can force activate all web pages with the Active Reader View extension

@neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul Some do but a lot don’t, especially on mobile devices. From what I can see even Firefox doesn’t have it on iOS.

Even with those that do have reader mode I think a lot of people don’t notice it.

If it were something commonly built into both the UI and UX of sites directly it could be very helpful to readers. And it wouldn’t require cooperation from browser vendors to enable.

@freedcreative @neauoire @liaizon @gavcloud @paul

This is true - the Firefox for mobile doesn't allow the same extensions as the computer version.

As with so many things accessibility for the differently-abled is often ignored

@liaizon @freedcreative @neauoire @gavcloud @paul so does safari, and it's been a lifesaver, especially on ad infested sites

@rozina @liaizon @neauoire @gavcloud @paul Oh you’re right! I never noticed.

Which is kinda what I was getting at.

Good to know it’s there though, thanks.

@liaizon @neauoire @gavcloud @paul A slightly less radical version of that idea would be exporting your content to a git repo. At least it seems interesting to me having all my notes in a database.

@inhji @neauoire @gavcloud @paul git repos don't mean anything to most of earths population. luckily we have a good percentage of the earths population who can read printed text without any electricity...

@liaizon
@inhji @neauoire @gavcloud I get a "cars are very fast horses" vibe when I think of my wiki being printed out on paper. Hypertext is a wonderful medium, I don't think you'd be able to faithfully preserve it in that format. Maybe some of it? Hmmm...

Roads are about the width of two horses butts. So it's not like we can really shake off the past entirely.

@paul @inhji @neauoire @gavcloud the idiom "cars are very fast horses" is especially funny here where I am staying right now because this is Amish country where most of the "traffic" on the road here are horse and buggies. So that phrase isn't as much an analogy as it is a statement of the present. Having a system that exports wikilinks into some citation format and an index in the back would be a nice standard. I could imagine that already exists somewhere

@liaizon @gavcloud @neauoire @paul
On the "flat HTML vs DB" bit, I actually think a TiddlyWiki style thing using a sqlite DB would be more future-proof. Imagine wanting to port your notes out of tiddlywiki as a lower-skill person (in a scenario where complex browsers have become unreliable).

You can use copypasta sql statements from fora and blogs and friends to learn to dump your DB into flat text - CSV or something, at least.

But copying the data out of a large, script heavy HTML file could be nightmarish unless you learn basic web scraping. And you'll probably have to unescape HTML entities and handle intra-document links that only retain meaning if you thought to capture them properly. These skills are broader and messier to learn, IMO, than basic SQLite.

@seachaint @gavcloud @neauoire @paul it wouldn’t even have to be an either or. You can have sql wasm inside your html document if you wanted now

@neauoire good reminder to have a punched cards (or at least printed?) backup :cooldog:

@neauoire for human readability yes, but they hold the potential of being electromechanically processed using human-scale and relatively easy to find materials

@rosano a webring application that didn't display at all without javascript.

@rosano back-to-back with another one that didn't display at without CSS3.

@neauoire if you know a way to 'see as css2' i would love to know what my stuff looks like, i use a lot of variables and flexbox

@rosano @neauoire sand, CSS3 features are kind of a godsend. any reason CSS3 is off the table, besides it being hard to implement?

@rosano your stuff looks good, I haven't had trouble browsing your sites.

@neauoire @rosano I’m curious what broke? Was it layout issues? And on what kind of browser?

@freedcreative @rosano The site with the CSS3 dependency was pretty interesting.

They had a css reset that set everything black, background, and font colors. They were using CSS3 var() to set all of their colors, so it displayed all black on any browser that didn't handle the var() declaration.

@freedcreative @rosano I was using Dillo, but the result is almost the same with Netsurf and other browsers like it.

@neauoire @rosano Oh right, interesting.

It’s a shame that the philosophy of progressive enhancement is just about forgotten now.

Which browser were you using? I’m about to construct a new site theme and it would be nice to test against it.

I’m not really a fan of CSS resets these days. All the browser overrides usually then just get overridden again with custom styles anyway.

I basically get rid of the default body margin, (which IMO shouldn’t be a default anymore), and that’s it.

@neauoire @rosano I think I might know the one you're talking about. That's primarily what tempts me at times to consider implementing a templating language in HURL, so sites like that could render clientside without complex browsers.

@neauoire @rosano I'm having a real hard time with this take. This line seems arbitrary. Unless you're talking about making your entire website hinge on some very specific chrome only feature. But even in that case, how is that different than requiring a browser at all?

Gardens require tools to maintain (I mean you can do some of it it by hand, but you'll tire yourself out). If you want to share with the most people, build small walls so anyone can get in. But that's not everyone's goal.

@ciel @neauoire @rosano I think for me the problem is the lack of backwards compatibility and peoples’ total disregard for it. Sure add tons of flashy animations and webgl etc., but if you want to actually share responsibly, you must consider progressive enhancement. For people who can’t get their hands on a newer computer (or simply don’t want to spend the money or change their software), people who require assistive technology to access digital content, etc.

@ciel @neauoire @rosano (I know that’s not _exactly_ what @neauoire was touching on, but the “interminable access to your own content” aspect is quite closely related to “everyone else’s access to your content”) ;)

@amatecha @neauoire @rosano Right, and I definitely believe you should try to make things as accessible as possible to your ability. But limiting what I make because it doesn't work in netsurf is arbitrary. If something is broke and I'll try to address it, but I'm more concerned if it works for my mom.

What about encryption? You encrypt your digital garden so that it's only accessible to you. Do you need to be able to do the decryption algorithm by hand so that you "truly have access" to it?

@ciel @neauoire It's worth reading Ivan Illich's "Tools for conviviality" in this context. He basically makes the case that all tools aren't equally desirable, and that tool selection doesn't happen without social consequences.

The argument is analogous to epidemiology. In both cases you're dealing with an exponential phenomenon, either a reproducing pathogen or a network effect of adoption. In the face of an exponential, small individual decisions can have huge collective consequences.

@neauoire is there a mega-chart of HTML and CSS compatibility for all the web browsers?

I really can't find one.

quirksmode.org maybe the closest but it looks out-of-date.

a chart comparing all the modern web browsers is not particularly meaningful.

looking for Lynx, Links, w3m, Dillo, Netsurf, what else? Wii browser was a form of Opera, I think. maybe some obscure pre-iPhone smartphone/PA browsers. and of course JAWS, and other screen-readers.

anybrowser.org was not helpful

/cc @alcinnz

@theruran @neauoire @alcinnz MDN has nice compat tables for each browser feature basically
I don't know how a global comparison table could be even presented

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Merveilles

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