Their current focus is building an electron wrapper for their system. And even tho I have no sympathy for the project - it makes me feel a bit of despair as there are so few people trying to build new stacks, and I wonder why/how you can even go from "let's make a clean slate OS", to "on Electron"..
@neauoire part of their setup process now suggests you create an s3 bucket (AWS) to store blobs like images because their data model can't yet handle large files...
honestly, there are plenty of people with interesting stacks but very few of those people have any substantive community around their work to support it and get it to a place that's as impressive as urbit (I don't care for urbit for a lot of reasons but a lot of work has gone into it thus far)
@nik @neauoire yeah unfortunately the current paradigm of building a user interface ex nihilo for every project that has to express a "brand identity" and shit is just categorically doomed nonsense
thankfully that's not the paradigm anyone should want in the first place. a shared set of abstract UI primitives, not controls but interfaces at a less granular scale, that can be user-composed to introspect and operate on data is much more viable. and sensible. and expressive.
@nik @neauoire though in addition to that both devine and I are pretty focused on things that are somewhat analogous to an overlay OS, at which "cross platform" is 20 minutes of work to port a super tiny runtime (uxn for devine or SIC inets in my case).
uxn is much further along on the usability front than my work fwiw, though I have very different goals and haven't been healthy enough to work
I feel bad to always bring uxn into the conversation, but.. it's the only thing I know..
uxnemu ./bin/application.rom | spd-say -t female2
Send selected words(interface, or text body) of an immediate-ui drawn application, directly to a t2s engine and speak the words out.
@csepp @neauoire @nik https://merveilles.town/@syntacticsugarglider/106662026206577286
I mentioned this in a reply. There are definitely cases where persisting a tree (or something) of UI nodes makes sense, but it requires a lot of architectural discipline.
@nik @neauoire I'm talking about something different, like a fundamentally different computing paradigm, where authorship of sources of truth and authorship of ways to perform certain abstract operations, as a user, on sources of truth that fit certain constraints are two different tasks. So you have like, a toolkit of composable interfaces for operating on structured data. Like a conventional OS used to be but for a more semantically contentful environment.
@nik @neauoire oh yeah i remember you brought up exocortex-ish stuff at one point and as I'm wont to do I barged in and started talking about my work .-.
and yeah, plan 9 is really good about the composability part as long as the semantic can all be held in wetware at once. beyond that it doesn't work because the system has no semantic knowledge or way of verifying constraints on how composition can occur. so, not super interesting to me long-term but still muuch better than anything in use rn.
@syntacticsugarglider I know! It has been going for such a long time now, and they could have chosen to become anything! It could have dared to be alien and weird, they chose this.
@neauoire there's plenty of alien and weird beneath the surface, it's just being severely underutilized. (A lot of that alien stuff is a bit awful though, especially their underlying abstract machine which is inherently super inefficient. I think we've discussed this a bit before)
@syntacticsugarglider yeah we did, it took me a while to understand why it was a bad design tho. I only understood it recently.
@neauoire it's not necessarily a bad design, it's just a huge amount of incidental complexity in most cases and needs a *lot* of cooperation at all levels of development to be at all elegant (otherwise you have messes of diffing and reflowing and two-way data binding that are just... atrocious)
this does make it a bad design in like 99% of cases, but in the long-term a particularly principled persistent UI engine is by far the best way to drive EPDs
@neauoire the horrors come about when you have something best-effort and large-scale that's used in every environment, needs to grow to support like every conceivable feature, etc. and when you have to do things with heuristics and trial-and-error and passing metrics around instead of with explicit cooperation from the things being painted
doing it properly is really only feasible if you can do it *once* and reuse but still have freedom to incrementally improve. this is true for most things.
@neauoire largely I think it's because they're more interested in their implicit social model (feudalism) than their stated technical goals.
@neauoire I have a steady trickle of people asking if they can run Mu on an x86 emulator on the browser. A bit more understandable, but still. I feel like they're missing the point.
I think the underlying desire of here might be to sandbox untrusted code just to try it out. I wonder if people would be more willing to try it out if I provided pre-built disk images. Or would installing Qemu still be a barrier..
@neauoire And in that time you've written a minimalist VM runtime and ported half your own work to it.
Really makes you think about the cost of complexity.
@neauoire It's hard to build stuff on a clean slate when you decided that everything on that slate must use bytecode that's worse than brainfuck.
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