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When you don’t create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. Your tastes only narrow and exclude people. so create.

— Why the Lucky Stiff

@neauoire
I miss him.

I would say I should go back to learning Ruby, but I think the spirit of his philosophy can be found in other languages, such as Rebol, Factor, Racket, [every smalltalk variant], Newspeak, and of course, tal.

That said, I should learn Ruby again. It is the only Python I enjoy.

@CosmicTortoise I ended up thinking about him after flipping through Thinking Forth, I don't know many examples of things that are visually inclined to teach programmatic things.

@neauoire
I honestly think the problem with learning to program is the attitude of what programming is for.

Instead of another tool to think with, to create and explore with, it is simply a skillset needed for a job in technology.

How can people ever enjoy computing when all the programming jobs are so boring? Or when the operating system itself is hostile to making programs?

Or even more pathetically, getting told that you are wasting your time if they are not learning C, C++, or Java.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire heh. i would also love to know more programming languages - recently i was so intrigued by a yt video that i dove into lisp! but as i now have over 30 years of experience - i do shrink from learning new languages because what i write in a new one can not keep up to the high expectations i have of my work.
but i got inspired - not only by you - to try something new so i built my own processor and assembly language - terribly fun this is!

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire

It's a kind of theft, really.
Programming is magic. We are wizards for knowing it. We should be summoning daemons, calling things up by their true names, touching the source. We should be wanderers, like Ged or Gandalf, transforming the world around us in subtle and powerful ways as we move through it.

Somehow, this vision of our role was stolen from us in favor of business casual and "disrupting" industries.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire Not at all. For me programming is a toy with infintive amount of gamemodes. I love discovering new structures, trying out algorithms, or, if I am lucky, to create something truly useful for me and others. It's like the ability to do magic.
And like magic, one can do it responsibly and nicely or can mess it up real bad.
programming ≠ programming for salary

@grin @neauoire I failed to clarify that this is the attitude I have seen in my programming classes from 2 different universities, which are ancedotal at best, or representational at worst.

I suppose it all depends on the kind of agency you have at your job, and at what level you operate at. My professor always emphasized that you want to be the architect, never the builder.

I suppose like anything else, the only time you want your hobbies to be your work is when you are your own boss.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire Right. I also like to differentiate between programmers and coders, which is probably the same as you wrote.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire "How can you enjoy it when the jobs are so boring." That's an interesting way to frame it. I think some people enjoy programming outside of a job context - as a hobby or whatever. Some people (myself included) enjoy it as a job despite that a job can be boring. I can also see how that is potentially a problematic mindset

@CosmicTortoise
@neauoire

> How can people ever enjoy computing when all the programming jobs are so boring? Or when the operating system itself is hostile to making programs?

This is basically every Alan Kay lecture or interview ever, and he's right every time

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire honestly have done the most experimental programming with QBasic back in the day and Love2d more recently. Simple is good. Trying tal too for uxn but slow progress there for me. I always want to like C because it's so portable and pretty easy to read. But gets complicated.

@neauoire I put Thinking Forth off until I finish Starting Forth, but I am starting to realize it was an unnecessary requisite.

The language is easy, it's the planning ahead that is hard.

I will be reading it next.

@CosmicTortoise starting forth is better in my opinion, but I just like that someone was both a programmer and artist and took it upon himself to bring people into that world.

@neauoire Perhaps if I actually read these books I would be an adequate programmer by now.

@CosmicTortoise haha, I think that comes with actually programming, but I haven't found how to be adequate either so..

@neauoire
Still, I can do a lot better than be a shitty librarian. Won't bore you with the rest of it.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire Well, now you guys made me redownload Thinking Forth and reread parts of it. :)

@neauoire I used to be part of the Forth interest group at Stanford before I moved away.

Also, there used to be the Electronic Flea Market at De Anza College, and then the parking lot of a Fry's before they went away.

I miss these things. Found electronics is the best.

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire oh, oh, I didn't realize that it was possible to buy a new copy of the Jupiter Ace manual! It's a computer that has always interested me but I don't know much about. I may be about to make an order online...

@CosmicTortoise @neauoire Ordered. There's something about computer manuals from the 80s that really appeals to me. From a time when computers were simpler and just starting to become available to the general public. A sort of optimism that's different from computing today.

@neauoire @CosmicTortoise Yeah, I had the second from the left, top row, when it first came out. I was a big fan of Forth back then. So much fun and quite useful in those days on the small machines of the time. I love the concepts it's based on. But today's machines are so powerful and languages so powerful there's no place for Forth anymore.

@neauoire the goat, man. He’s the velvet underground. Like, fuck what you’re supposed to do, how you’re supposed to learn. I’m building the things I want to see and that’s that

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Merveilles

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