@theneko pretty soon unreal just makes the game for you :sadlinux:

Seriously impressive what they're doing. I can't imagine other engines catching up for a while

@cone @theneko Are they doing anything that would be of interest to people targeting low end machines? I scrolled for a while but it's all triple A stuff. Not really surprising given where they get their money from, gotta sell those GPUs somehow.

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@csepp @cone @theneko Haha, are you kidding. I went on the website to see how large it was, I tried scrolling on the download page and it just froze my browser.

Eventually, I saw that to download Unreal Engine, you need to first download the "Unreal Engine Downloader".

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@neauoire @csepp @cone Well, the downloader just installs the launcher, not the engine. You need to download the downloader to download the the thing that downloads the engine. A least it all runs on Linux now!

@neauoire @theneko @cone Based on the docs, looks like they even removed 32 bit support?
docs.unrealengine.com/5.0/en-U

Well.... even if that's just for the editor, that's kind yikes.

@csepp @neauoire @cone That sounds about right. They recently moved to support planet sized coordinate systems and I wouldn't want to be the guy trying to get that to play nicely with 32bit.

@theneko @neauoire @cone :sadlinux: yeah, sounds like AAA needs.
i wish there was an engine i could be excited for that didn't force people to buy new hardware, but even Godot is getting in on the graphics craze.

@theneko @neauoire @cone Anyways, sorry for interrupting the fangushing, I'm sure it will be fun to work with for people who don't care for supporting old hardware. I just don't see how this industry trend is anything but a net negative for the world...

@csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone Ripcord has been around since 2016 and it's never had a 32-bit version. Intel hasn't shipped a 32-bit-only mainstream consumer CPU in 14 years. You know me and that I do a lot of retro computing and old hardware stuff. But it makes no sense to have a second code path for 32-bit computers for mainstream stuff.

@cancel @theneko @neauoire @cone Hmm, idk, I think the reason people are fine with having to throw out their 32 bit systems is because they think it's inevitable. Just like how many people don't question having to buy a new smartphone every 2-4 years.
I have a hard time imagining a game needing fast 64 bit math, when Minecraft could achieve an infinite world on 32 bit.
I get why supporting 32 bit doesn't make business sense for Epic, but I disagree with their business priorities.

@cancel @theneko @neauoire @cone
I think my main gripe is that I don't want software and games to be a luxury. The more people can experience this art form and benefit from these tools, the better. I've met families who could barely afford getting a new laptop when remote learning started. One family bought a used netbook that was 32 bit and had maybe 2 GB of RAM, because that was all they could afford.

@csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone I bought a 64-bit computer for $20 a few months ago... I don't know if it's reasonable to expect mainstream developers to support hardware that's 10+ years old.

@cancel @theneko @neauoire @cone Cheap used hardware is not available everywhere and finding quality used hardware is a challenge for people who aren't experts. This family did not have the time or energy to research this stuff and they needed multiple machines for the kids. Yes, it's not impossible right now where most of us live with the knowledge we have to procure good used hardware, but that is not the case for everyone. It might not be the case for us in a few years either.

@csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone I'd rather focus my frustration on developers creating new software that's slow or unusable on *new* hardware :P

@csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone I get where you're coming from, though. For most software (outside of games meant to show off new hardware capabilities, and high-resolution video playback) most stuff that people do on computers should work on 10+ year old hardware without a problem.

@cancel @theneko @neauoire @cone Yup. Tbh even a lot of games could support "scaling down". Especially non-real-time ones, where taking a bit longer to process something is not necessarily a deal breaker. (eg. TCGs could easily run on any networked computer)

@cancel @csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone In Argentina we have literally millions of 32bit netbooks mainly in hands of kids and teens. Its sad as hell that you can only do retrocomputing nobody whants to (I do) with them. Even the team that developes huayra linux droped 32bits suport for convenience.

@maleza @csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone In terms of architecture and number of years of difference (14 years ago at a minimum) it's similar to asking people to have their software support a Commodore 64 (discontinued 1993/1994) at the same time as an Intel Core i7 Nehalem (introduced 2008).

Of course the actual difference in capability is smaller, but there is a limit to what you can expect people to do for new software.

@maleza @csepp @theneko @neauoire @cone Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I wrote software last month that works on 20+ year old computers :P

@neauoire @cancel @maleza @csepp @theneko @cone Meanwhile, IBM mainframes (up to and including the latest Z16 that was just announced) are 64-bit, and can still run software (both kernel and user mode) from 1964 when the System/360 was cutting edge. IBM Power Systems servers can still run software for the System/34 and AS/400, which is 1970-80s era technologies.

I think part of their success here is that MVS and z/OS and i/OS (not to be confused with Apple's iOS, without the slash) have ABIs which aren't tied to any one programming language, and therefore, the systems have no one "magic language" like Linux or Windows does (namely, C).

@vertigo @neauoire @maleza @csepp @theneko @cone 8086 code still runs on my 2018 Threadripper CPU. But yeah you're talking about OS-level failings here. Linux (and most other unixes) are awful. Mac is almost as bad. Windows is better than those but still has a lot of problems running old software.

@cancel @maleza @theneko @neauoire @cone The further we go back the faster hardware was changing then. PC hardware (including portables) has been good enough for daily tasks and even gaming for longer than 14 years.
Obviously if you really *need* to make something (especially within a deadline) that *needs* modern hardware features, target modern hardware. But I don't think most game devs should fall into that category.

@csepp @maleza @theneko @neauoire @cone Writing high-perf code for 14 year old hardware means almost a 100% rewrite. Two copies of your code. More than twice the work (because they need to work the same as each other) it's just not reasonable to expect.

@cancel @maleza @theneko @neauoire @cone Depends on the resources available, but yeah. Epic certainly has the resources to do it, it's just not where their interests lie.
This is where having access to source code is very useful, so people can support their own use cases. Modularity too. Eg.: I don't think Unreal's animation system needs 64 bit hardware. Or even a GPU for that matter. So the high perf code can often remain optional.

@csepp @cancel @maleza @neauoire @cone Oh, we do have access to UE5's source. Someone could code in support for 32 bit if they really wanted to.

@theneko Sadly, as unreal engine is proprietary software, it running on GNU/Linux is only a net negative - any game made with that engine is now proprietary temptation.
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