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showing and explaining yip.pe to a colleague
> so what did you use to build it?
javascript
> right but like, how, what stack did you use?
javascript
> did you use like, react or node or
… just plain javascript
> how did you make it work tho
i used javascript

node and react broke people’s brains. no one remembers that it’s okay to just not use a framework, build system, or even npm. you can just write plain javascript. no one will yell at you.

@zens the difficulty is finding anyone who'll show you how to do this if you're just starting out. Almost all tutorials start with "first use npm to install this package"

@screenbeard i’ll show people how to do this. what’s difficult is finding anyone who’s interested. newrly everyone is either drunk the npm koolaide or wants to get rid of javascript entirely, as if npm hell is a necessary part of the javascript experience

@zens I recently learned how to use native es6 modules in my vanilla JS and it was a fun day. Then I ruined it by adding vue.js, but I didn't touch npm directly, so I didn't catch anything.

[edit: delete and redraft for keyboard smash copy paste fail]

@screenbeard @zens Something I was going to learn - because I am at least a decade out of date - but Things Happened and I now work for a JS-phobe, but I am only doing backend stuff now. Mostly PL/pgSQL, with Go as glue (which otherwise would have been node. Or Perl.)

@zens @screenbeard I ended up figuring it out eventually so idt I really need a tutorial on Vanilla JS, but if it helps I'm one of the rare people who loves JavaScript but would rather not use a server or framework unless necessary

@zens Now defunct (business was sold) domain registration system I built had all sorts of fancy front end validation and DOM manipulation, based on a simple library. Which I wrote for the task. And have subsequently reused. Can't even remember the name of that early and popular JS framework which has all rhe $ in it, but I was always like, what is the fucking POINT? JS is so easy to use. Why complicate shit?

@grumpysmiffy @zens if you're talking about jQuery - in its defence, when it was huge, javascript across browsers (particularly support for stuff in early IE) was a fucking nightmare. I cut my teeth on it and it made learning the concepts a lot easier because I wasn't rushing about learning why certain features weren't working in my user's browsers. JS is a lot better now.

@screenbeard @grumpysmiffy indeed- jquery was a safe cross browser cushion and also some extra. nowadays; unless you’re doing things like webrtc

@zens @screenbeard Guess I'm just really old school (I'm fucking ancient) Built my library using the Mozilla compatibility matrices for all the commands. Never liked using frameworks unless I have audited them*, and there's never time for that.

*Or audited by someone I trust.

@zens @screenbeard Should add, back when I was doing the enterprise software thing, auditing all external (perl) modules was standard workflow, unless they were "standard." That's back in the days when I used to give a shit...

(Joking, I'm still just as anal about it as ever.)

@screenbeard @grumpysmiffy @zens This era of jQuery is the last time that I touched JavaScript. I’d probably have to learn the whole thing again now.

@futzle @screenbeard @zens Ditto, time-wise. Just glad that I am no longer having to do front end stuff. Spent too much time there, just to have work.

@zens I feel like this is symptomatic of a different but very much related issue, and that's project management being strong-armed by higher-ups to constantly hammer on more features.

Everything has to be a "real-time interactive data driven super fun time experience SPA".

Trying to meet the expectations of current managerial teams using vanilla Javascript is like trying to whittle a working Fefarri.

@zens point is: the road to npm hell is paved with the "good intentions" of having an app do quite literally everything at once

@technomancy @zens exactly. If you ask me, it's a patsy in the "mystery" of "who's killing the Web"

@somarasu @technomancy @zens

I remember when it was “do I write this in vanilla JavaScript or get real fancy and use jQuery?”

@maddiefuzz @somarasu @technomancy @zens as a php dev several years ago, I remember treating jquery as an i/o layer - to read from & update th page, then vanilla js or api calls to php for any calculations/manipulations

was often ecommerce systems so you couldn't always trust client-side calculation

@technomancy @somarasu @zens [insert "why not both" gif here in lieu of witty response]

@o @zens @technomancy
> "why not both"

Because one is CLEARLY not like the other xD

@o @zens @technomancy one is old, bloated, and requires everyone understand and follow its tenants lest you be an unemployed pariah.

The other one is a programming language called "Javascript"

@somarasu @o @zens @technomancy bit off topic at this point but I've had success pushing the 'increased attack surface'/security angle of using vast JS stacks / npm ecosystem. I got some numbers calculated on expected costs of dealing with the aftermath of an exploit. So then the discussions became: "yes we can cut a month from development time by using this stack but here's how much it could hurt us later". Hardly a panacea, but enough leverage to push back against the worst excesses

@somarasu You're not at all unique in failing to make the distinction, but I've reached my tipping point ... again.

PSA:

tenants are the people who live in a building

tenets are the pillars of a belief system

@technomancy @zens @o

@technomancy @somarasu @zens Yeah, I like railing against JavaScript. But I do admit that you can use it responsibly.

Seems that outside of capitalism few find it worth the investment not too...

@alcinnz @technomancy @somarasu i am a big believer in progressive enhancement/ graceful degredation. i think for accessibility all websites *should* work without javascript enabled. (though it’s not yet totally clear to me how to do this with yip.pe. maybe 256 little pull down menus that do a form submit to a script that responds with a png?

@zens @technomancy @somarasu Yeah there are situations (usually editors) where progressive enhancement is not the path of least resistance, where you essentially end up building a serverside app & clientside app. This situation isn't near as common as many managers seem to think...

@zens Honestly, I bet some people will yell at you. Bite them.

We had a couple classmates in college that tried to convince me that using fancy frameworks was /better/ somehow. I was like ????

@zens

The number of people who have suggested I rewrite some simple, tabular, frameworkless JS UI for doing CRUD in Vue is amazing.

@emma
> why didn’t you use X

my friend. my brother. i have been doing this a long time and i am still being forced to maintain shit written in X - 1 and X - 2

@emma i can often, given an afternoon, replace whole frameworks with a couple lines of idiomatic javascript. these contraptions are built for people who don’t want to learn javascript

@zens

And then when you show people you can, instead of pulling down a blob of JSON and turning it into a table or some other UI, your server side template can do the same, so you can insert it into the DOM and if you have written your event handlers with the proper scoping, don't even have to update them.

@zens going back to the original message of the thread, I will admit that vanilla js is absolutely okay. It doesn't have to be a painful dangerous mess. It can just be a happy little tree.

@zens Saw your earlier toots. WHAT is the problem people have with vanilla JavaScript? I have used it for any number of things, every time, fit for purpose. I'd argue that frameworks (I don't mean the ones for building mobile apps) are just bloat for lazy see you next Tuesdays. First serious use was building engineering calculators back in the late 90's. HTML plus browser makes a great UI.

@grumpysmiffy i dunno, people come from other languages, miss their pet features and blame the language instead of their unreasonable expectations

@grumpysmiffy the other thing is since it is so flexible approachable and available, it gets abused by people who don’t quite know what they are doing and that leads to some bad very user experiences- and a bad experience being more visible and memorable than a good experience, that becomes people’s dominant experience of javascript and so it gets blamed unfairly on javascript itself rather than the website’s developers

@grumpysmiffy like if people’s dominant experience with cars was with bad drivers they might conclude that cars are just bad.

@zens but then why does the js on that page look like it came out of a bundler/minifier and contain zepto.js?

@guenther because i got lazy and used a couple of functions out of zepto, so sue me.

i’ll clean it up at some point and kill the zepto dependency

@guenther even so calling zepto a “stack” or a “framework” is putting it a bit strongly.

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